Dungeon Siege III and its expansion.

Hmm.. only 30 years later you say..? I was sure it was 100 years later as they said at one point, though I do remember a mention of it being a generation later. I was unable to find the information on the Garage as well.

I'm a big DS history buff, Solly. I think it is something like 30 years. And as for a story for DS3? How about the whole war of Azunai vs. Zaramoth? It is meant to be a game! Hell with creating a whole new story, why not make a game on the force that drives the entire series?

I've also looked at official sites, and couldn't find anything definitive, but there was a link on one of the official sites to the DS2 Soundtrack site, where there's a button you can click "About the Game":

http://www.directsong.com/index.asp?game=dungeonsiege2

It says "It's been a generation since you vanquished the evil that plagued the land of Ehb, and now ... a new menace has awakened." (ellipses in original)

So, unless there's something official that denies that claim, I guess we have to go with "a generation later." Of course, "a generation" is defined in different ways by different people. 30 years might be one definition, though.

If we go with 30 years, it's not at all impossible that a DS1 character could still be alive.

But I wonder if GPG has a different view of the timeline. 30 years hardly seems enough time for schools of magic to restructure themselves so that Nature Mages, even those from Ehb, are no longer trained in (or able to use, without the necessary Combat Magic levels) Electrical spells. Yoren Glitterdelve (the NPC Fist of Stone party member in DS2BW) is from Ehb, and being a FoS, he's necessarily a Nature Mage, and on top of that, he's also apparently over 100 years old. Was there a mini-cataclysm 30 years ago that changed magic? If so, why is there nothing said about it in the historical books and dialogues in-game? I think it must have been longer than 30 years, and even longer than a generation (unless maybe we're talking about the Elven understanding of "generation"?).

~~~
Giovanna

That was the sentence! "It's been a generation since you vanquished the evil that plagued the land of Ehb, and now ... a new menace has awakened."

When DS2 was being made we where told that the time difference would be 100-200 years. I think I was still stuck on that..

And I think a generation could be interpreted as 20-40 years, with 30 years as the most common timespan for us in our day. It seems like it should be more judging from the difference in the games. The dwarves had vanished, the magic schools changed as was mentioned and so on. But then again, quite a lot can happen in just 30 years under the right circumstances. Not sure we have seen or been told about circumstances like that. Meh I am babbling.. I think I need to play the game some more so I can get a better grasp.

Reagents, Recipes, and Enchantables.

I've been thinking about these, in connection with what TAS suggested about being able to select effects and my idea about a paint option for armor and boots and gloves, and well, I think it would be cool to have reagent recipes that allow you to go get the enchantable armor of your choice (as in the style of the armor, like for example, Tribal Armor), take it to whomever you have to take it to in order to get the color the way you want it (like maybe red and black or blue and silver, or whatever), and then take the reagent recipe, the necessary reagents, and the armor to the Enchantress/Enchanter, and have it enchanted so that it has the armor plus and other variables you would expect to get from the reagent recipe, but still look like what you selected based on style (Tribal Armor) and still be the color(s) you chose at the color-dealer (red and black, or blue and silver, or whatever), so you could have a "Robe of the Frozen North" that looks like red and black Tribal Armor (or a chainmail bikini).

On another note, headbands (as in Witness' Dark and Light Elves mod) would be a nice option for helmets, too. After all, what's the point of choosing a nice hairstyle and then not being able to see it because of the helmet? And like I said over on Siege Network a while back (and have repeated here, with the thing about illusion), just because it looks like a headband doesn't mean it can't have a decent AR.

I like Kathy's thread over on Herena Forge where she has pictures to show how androgynous (or even generically masculine) most of the better rated armor looks, and I agree that girls should look like girls, or what's the point of having a female character in the first place? And for those who might object on grounds of "realism" (in a Fantasy game?) that armor shouldn't look different on different characters, think illusion. Besides, if a Half Giant like Lothar can wear the same armor a Dwarf like Yoren just took off, and it fits him with no alterations having to be done, and no damage to the armor (or Lothar), then a female character should be able to expect to put on armor that fits her as well, in terms of not making her look like a guy.

~~~
Giovanna

Good point about the headbands. Some of them have a very good armor rating and another sort of similiar thing is the hair ribbons and wigs that are in the Dungeon Siege Revived mods (regular and LoA versions). Female characters appear bare-headed but can wear a pigtails wig or have a ponytail and still get the armor benefits of a "regular" helmet. There are only a few helms that I really like in the game, so having headbands and magic hair ribbons is a nice alternative.

I think having expanded choices for armor is always a good thing, which is one reason to have mods BUT maybe one shouldn't theoretically have to rely on mods to provide those choices. (of course you folks know I am not disrespecting mods, or denying how much enrichment mods can add to a game)...it just would be nice if the folks making this hypothetical DS3 took some more care with the armor as it appears in game.

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Total absence of humor renders life impossible.
Colette

Hair ribbons would work, too. I haven't tried Dungeon Siege Revived yet, so I didn't know about that option, but it sounds cool. I'm not sure about the wigs, though. What do you mean by "bare-headed"?

In fairness to the game's designers, I should note that the armor in DS2 is better in terms of how it can look on female characters than what we had in DS1, but there's still a lot of room for improvement.

~~~
Giovanna

Here's the thread I was talking about, in case anyone hasn't seen it.

herenaforge.org/tiki-view_blog_post.php?blogId=26&postId=1083

~~~
Giovanna

With Revived your character can start the game with a few different hairstyles than normal, such as pigtails and a beehive (Think Bride of Frankenstein minus the white streak ;)) and then as you progress throughout the game you can find or purchase wigs that exactly match your character's haircolor (the magic of skrit I suppose). The wigs also come in pigtails, a geisha style, beehive, and a bun type of thing. There may be a bit more, but those are the ones I have come across. So it looks bareheaded but really isn't as the wigs function as a helmet...complete with armor rating, same as the ribbons. I think this is a very nice feature.

Another thing I would like to see is more interaction with the enviroment, such as the ability to climb on things, swim, jump and stuff like that. You can do that in many other games (Morrowind springs to mind) so why not DS?

Oh yea, that is actually my blog, so people would have to scroll down to find that particular entry. I will post the pictures in my blog here ( I think I know which ones you mean).

http://www.herenaforge.org/tiki-view_blog.php?blogId=26

*edit* ok, the pictures are in my blog here with the title of Really ugly armor.

Yay, another edit...here is a pic of my character wearing the pigtails wig. It matches her hair perfectly, and say for example if I dropped it and gave it to Ulora (wigs and hair ribbons only compatible with farmgirl) it would match Ulora's hair perfectly, so it must be some skrit magic. Of course we wouldn't want GPG to just take these ideas, but it should be inspiration to them if and when they do DS3. I think there has been so much modding done, that modder's work should prove inspirational to the folks at GPG...I know I found it inspiring to me.

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Total absence of humor renders life impossible.
Colette

Ohhh, okay, I gotcha. I was thinking bare-headed as in bald (yikes!). But that sounds like a good idea (the wigs, not baldness -- poor Britney).

Yes, it would be nice to be able to explore a little more of the environment than just the pathways from one quest objective to another. There are several places in Aranna I've wanted to climb on, or up to, just to have a look around.

In DS1, there were a lot of watery areas you could at least walk into (like all those water-filled holes in the Crystal Caverns), but in DS2, there are very few watery areas you can even walk in (let alone swim). I can thnk of only two off the top of my head -- one was the area on Greilyn that led to that cave behind the waterfall, and the other was in the first area outside of Aman'lu where you could either cross the bridge or go wading.

As for jumping, the first time I did the Agallan Trial, I thought it would have been so much easier if I could just jump across, instead of having to raise all four parts of the bridge. The flight thing I've suggested would allow some of that, though (but I guess that would have to be prohibited in the Agallan Trial, unless the Agallans think that something like Alexander's solution to the Gordian Knot is a valid solution to their challenge). But there are myths and legends from some cultures about certain heroes or seers who had great Leaping ability, so perhaps that could be worked into the game somehow in connection with a specific class.

Another thing that I think would be nice for DS3 is the option to open the game in a window, as well as in full-screen. There have been a number of times when I've used Ctrl-Esc in order to get back to the desktop (like when using a walkthrough and going back to consult it again in the midst of play), and then maximized the game again only to find that some interfaces were messed up. If it were opened in a window, I don't think that would happen.

And while we're brainstorming about ideas for DS3, I have a few more ideas (I don't think anyone is surprised to see me say that at this point).

I think that an item that requires a higher level than another item of the same type (as in armor or staff or sword or whatever) should naturally have a better base quality (for armor, that would be a better AR, and for a staff or sword, it would be better damage), but that isn't always the case (and with the additional modifiers, a case can be made that the item is really better, but in some cases, that's questionable). I'm thinking primarily of armor here -- there are several armors that have a much better AR than others which require a much higher level, and I'm talking about armors that are concerned with the same class, like Melée).

Also, if an item is "legendary," shouldn't it live up to the label? I've seen a lot of drops in BW that were called "legendary X," then picked them up and looked at them and found they left a lot to be desired. I understand that the second Cataclysm altered magic, so a little of this is understandable, but apparently it altered it really badly.

And on the subject of picking things up to look at them, it would be nice to be able to right-click on an item on the ground and get some idea of how big it is, in terms of how much inventory space it will take up, as in DS1 and LoA, without having to have your character's inventory auto-arranged to make room, just to look at something. I like to have party members in DS2 and BW, and so I usually have the room in another party member's inventory, but I really despise having to rearrange my inventory back to the way I want it (I keep my spellbooks in a certain order that makes sense to me) after picking up something that won't fit without auto-arranging.

And back to the topic of items, there are unique items and set items in DS2 and BW, as we all know. Those are often very cool (especially in terms of appearance and visual effects). But it would be nice if the base quality and modifiers got better in Veteran than what they were in Merc, and better in Elite than what they were in Veteran, sort of like how in LoA you had the Staff of Stars, the Super Staff of Stars, and the Supreme Staff of Stars, depending on whether you obtained it in Merc, Vet, or Elite.

~~~
Giovanna

Heh. What I find kind of lame is that I forgot about this topic and was about to post my ideas, but you guys basically got them all. Bravo. Well... maybe a few.

...and I don't see the DS franchise mentioned.

First an article (with a CT interview) from Feb.:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=22806

And something new from today:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24342

I guess that the original IP could be done on the DS engine, but we'll have to just wait and see.

As for set items, I think it would be a good idea if there were some way to make sure that the entire set could be gotten before it is outclassed by "ordinary" or "rare" items.

And with regard to reagent recipes, I can't count how many times I've managed to gather all the necessary reagents for a recipe but been unable to get the item needed to be enchanted, or gathered the item and all of the reagents but one. Then when I finally get all the necessary stuff together and have the item enchanted, it turns out to be a disappointment in terms of how weak it is. That's another thing that should be fixed, ideally in terms of level-relation. For example, there was that one sword recipe that needed an enchantable legendary 2-handed sword, a demon jaw, an oak branch, a sapphire pommelstone, and a ruby pommelstone. By the time I had all the necessary ingredients and the item and got it enchanted, it was basically useless to my characters, as they had progressed beyond any advantage it would have provided.

With regard to an "ordinary" legendary item, I think it should have the full 4x4 enchantment, not just some single enchantment. What's the point of calling it "legendary" if it only has one enchantment?

I saw some people moaning over on the GPG forum about the frequency of "unique" and "rare" drops. Alright, I'll grant that the terms have been misused, maybe some alternative nomenclature is warranted, but I don't think they drop too frequently.

No to MMO. If I pay $20-$50 for a game, I don't want to have to pay a monthly/yearly fee to continue to play it. I've already paid for it once. If there's a way to get MMO without paying additional fees, it might be interesting, but I have a feeling it would rule out moddability. However, if there is a way to increase the number of individuals who can play together in one game session (say up to maybe 10 different people in one game session), that might be welcome (it's still going to be more limited for people with dial-up connections, naturally).

Capping advancement at level 100 was a bad idea (particularly if you play through DS2 Merc, then BW Merc, then DS2 Vet, then BW Vet, then DS2 Elite, and then BW Elite, including all secondary quests; there's little to no room for extraneous leveling outside the official questing). Give us back level 150 (or more).

Make PvP an option. By that I mean it should be an available mode of play. There should be three modes in this regard: No PvP, Only PvP, and PvP Allowed (but not exclusive). The latter might require designated areas where PvP can take place (such as a PvP Arena), leaving those who don't want to engage in such bloodsport free to wander the rest of the map without having to worry about PK. Teams should also be an option (and while there could be three modes there as well, in practical terms, I think it would have to be an either-or situation).

I'm sure there are still other ideas that will occur to me ...

(To Be Continued?)

1) Should "unique" really mean "will not drop if already in game"?
Those who want it that way tend to be SP players, who get tired of seeing the same "unique" item dropping instead of the one they really want. MP players hold the opposite view, because they don't like the idea that if someone else has one, they can't ever get it.

2) Grades of otherwise identical items looks like a lazy way to get a few models to do the work of a lot more, and it wasn't done right. A "good" should always be better than a basic item, and so on all the way up. All too often the "legendary" items are no better than an exceptional with the right enchantments.

3) PvP was made impracticable by the introduction of Powers. Without equally unbalanced defence they make a one-hit kill too possible, so PvP just becomes a question of who can hit first. So a PvP game would have to turn them off. This would probably eliminate any dual-mode option, because without them, you can't take on a mob with over a million hit points. I.e. PvP with powers off, regular PvC (Player(s) versus Computer) has powers on.

4) GPG apparently think that online MP means no mods allowed, otherwise you get cheating. So that has to mean no mods for SP? Why can't CRC checks be applied only for multi-player games?

This (dis)proportional work can be considered as conceptional bug if you like and actually many mods can help here.
I must admit i'm a bit impatient too to get my recipes cooked thus not surprising there are some corresponding improvments like an extra enchantable shop in the Hotfix and Aranna Legacy mod.
However, in particular having knowledge about the approximate levels of recipe items will help you a lot planing your efforts.

However, also the PvP part of a game has to be programmed, moreover PvP probably wants the delelopper/publisher to provide much more updates since bugs will be found quickly and surely abused too - i'm not sure if he is willed to spend more money (or willed to increase game price because of an evidentally holey PvP mode).

There was an interesting suggestion about castles made by "Prince Nefarious" over on the Gas Powered Garage forum:

http://garage.gaspowered.com/?q=node/2061&highlight=DS3

He suggested that there should be a castle that the players can lay siege to, and then claim it as their own personal inn/storage vault. I think this would be excellent, particularly if the castle had more than one room for storage (i.e., three rooms each with its own storage vault, plus the ordinary storage vault in town, all of which should have more than one page). While this may be unnecessary if the player is soloing and is not inclined to store a lot of stuff, as KillerGremal pointed out, buying/finding and saving reagents "just in case" they are needed later would be significantly easier in such a situation. Even with the storage vault and an almost-full inn, plus 6 active party members, I have constantly had to drop stuff and transmute it to gold or feed it to my Dark Naiad (who is now "Mature" and can't eat anymore). It was bad enough without reagents and enchantable gear, but now that those are included (and I think they should remain in DS3), I want more storage space, obviously.

"Hassat Hunter" and "archaven" also had a good suggestion about being able to upgrade set items, to keep them useful at higher levels.

In addition, "archaven" had some other suggestions that sounded good, like allowing more than two buffs at a time, being able to select two characters to go do something while the rest of the party waits (as in Baldur's Gate, where you could drag the mouse to enclose as many party members as you wanted to be "active"), and the addition of cloaks.

Several people suggested alternate outcomes for quests, which gives the player more room for character development and, obviously, more choice. When I played BW in Merc, for example, I did Ressa's quest. When I played in Vet, I refused to bind Lorethal's soul, and the quest remained "incomplete." That was no big deal, because I already had Ressa in the inn from Merc, but it also, like most other quests in the game, had only one option for completion, leaving the player with no choice but to do it the way the developers intended. If there were something akin to the alignment system in D&D, as well as racial attitudes (Elves, for example, value freedom in D&D, and such a value system would be expected to impact on their decisions in adventuring), it would encourage more possibilities for the way the characters should react to various quests, and therefore would tend to produce different outcomes. Playing on a concept of "destiny" or "fate" is one thing, but even hard-line hyper-Calvinists do not deny the existence of "human responsibility."

In DS1/LoA, there were a few places where the characters could stand and wait for their hit points and mana to restore. In DS2/BW, when you finish one battle, there's already another one starting (or else your summoned creatures see opponents and go after them, dragging you into another battle whether you want it or not). I like being able to stand around and enjoy the scenery, and letting my health/mana restore. In some cases, these attacks may be intended to distract the player from things that they need to pay attention in order to see (just as in DS1, signs only pointed in two directions, leaving the third direction unmarked, so as to make it less noticeable; there were other examples of misdirection in DS1, such as when the guard in Quillrabe Canyon tried to discourage the player from going up onto the overlook area, which led to the secret area in the Forgotten Mesas), but there are other possible ways of doing this (such as the misdirection in DS1 just mentioned).

Several people also noted the huge amount of gold that characters accumulate, which becomes ridiculous long before the characters are in the 90th level range. There isn't a lot to spend that money on, but if there were the possibility of buying a house, hiring henchmen (like guards for your castle), becoming the ruler of a small principality (which would require some spending for improvements, social programs, etc), and so on, there might be more uses for gold. And just how is it possible that the characters can carry so much gold, but so little gear? Surely 10 million gold pieces weigh quite a lot. Alright, I'm not going to complain much about that aspect, because I'm not really an advocate of "realism" in fantasy games, but inconsistency annoys me.

The occasional wandering merchant in the wilderness (as in DS1/LoA) is also a necessary addition. The Summon Teleporter spell and the teleporters at certain points in the game are cool, but even so, occasional wandering merchants only enhance the gaming experience.

Time changes (and possibly season changes) would be a good addition. In DS1, in some areas, there was actual passage of time (what a concept!), such as in the Endless Dunes (where you could witness dusk, night, dawn, and day) and in Iliarth Canyon (where you had day and twilight, though it never actually turned to night).

Weather (not static, as in the areas where it always snowing -- though I like the fact that there areas where it is always snowing -- but periodic changes in the weather, at least in most areas of the wilderness, although I suppose rain in the desert would have to be very rare, unless there is a monsoon season).

Keep time limits out of the quests. Although the "Azunite Scholar" tried to rush the party into rescuing Eva, there was no need to rush, and that is as it should be. The almost-constant battling tends to encourage rushing already, far too much. Like I said, I would like to stop and smell the roses from time to time. The landscapes are, in spite of the general lack of sweeping vistas, beautiful, and should be appreciated, which is rather difficult if the entire game outside of towns is just one battle after another.

With regard to some of the "unique" items: the legends associated with Arinth's Staff and the Mace of Agarrus are extreme exaggerations. If these are actually artifacts/relics of legendary figures, and if the legends claim that Agarrus could level towns with his mace (for example), then there should be some special ability on each such artifact/relic that gives some basis for those aspects of the legends. The Mace of Agarrus is relatively weak, compared to the legends attached to it. Arinth's Staff is a bit more impressive (if only because of the plus to Combat Magic damage), but still does not live up to the legends about it. If any items should actually be literally "unique" (as in there being only one instance of the item), it should be relics/artifacts like these (though I'm not so keen on anything being literally "unique," as I think I've said already; still, perhaps a change in nomenclature would alleviate some people's anxiety over this).

I agree with "Crazy Zonie" that there were too few towns in DS2. The number (and frequency) of towns in the Utraean Peninsula map was about right.

"Hassat Hunter" also brought up the subject of "rumours," gathered from an innkeeper. To some extent, we have that already, from tavern patrons, but these are invariably starting points for secondary quests. A little additional rumour, which may or may not be true, and may or may not have any bearing on anything in the game, would give a more authentic feel to the tavern environment. Think of the old 1st edition basic D&D module, "Keep on the Borderlands" ("Bree yark!" does not mean "We surrender," though one rumour in that module was that it did).

I know that the ending of BW says that Lothar went off to study with the Agallans, etc, but it would have been nice to have Lothar's reconciliation with the Agallans as part of the game, a secondary quest (that would have necessitated more than one expansion, perhaps, but more than one expansion would have been a good thing). In the same way, the question of the origin of the Dryads has never been fully answered (hints and innuendos aside). Perhaps DS3 could include a quest or some lore books that provide the answers to that.

Keep the point-and-click feature. If you want to do a version for console gamers, make a different GUI for that. PC gamers have mouses (mice?)!

"Solipso" writes:

I agree with that much of what he said. There have to be some allowances for ordinary life, even for those of us who are "hard-core gamers."

And again, a chainmail bikini would be nice, as in Red Sonja of Marvel Comics back in the 70s. Some of us grew up reading things like that, and may still have such characters as potential models for our own RPG characters (which includes looking the part). In fact, a wider range of attire across the board would be nice, and as I've said before, being able to choose colors for that attire is a plus.

I agree with everything that has been said, but as for the waiting, that feature is available, although you have to assign your own "hot-keys". I always have keys assigned to "stop current action" and "wait".
Partial quote:

But that "Wait" feature only lets one party member move, while all the others are left to wait. In BG, by dragging the mouse to make a tetragonal selection, you could have as many or as few of your party as you wanted moving, while the others stayed behind. Sure, a lone scout is useful, but there are also situations in which it might be advantageous to have two/three party members go into something by themselves.

Yeah, it's a pain in the rump doing it the DS2 way. Plus if you want them to use a lever you have to make sure the rest of the party is out of range, otherwise they all come running.

I agree, and some control over the party formation would be useful

playing with a melee CHR at the fore means that you charge into
the middle of the fracas with camera attached - which is fun,
but you lose sight of the possible tactical advantages provided
by the layout of the battleground

- often I focus on a non-melee CHR, as this gives a
better overview of the whole scene during battle..

This is still one of the best graphic games around
the camera's versatility is just amazing..

Hmm...

-Return of all the old weapons from Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Siege II, plus some new ones.

-The removal of 'weapon tiers' that would reuse the same model. That's lazy. Also, archers should actually have quivers and draw their arrows/bolts from them. Also, a limited amount of arrows/bolts, so you have buy or harvest them from fallen foes.

-More character customization. I mean, Hell, DS1's was better than DS2. You should be able to change your clothes, face, body shape, all of that.

-Less combat orientation. You shouldn't be constantly fighting when you're not inside a city. There should be time to enjoy the beautiful landscapes around you. You should be able to talk with city-people, sit in taverns, tell your squadmates to go off on their own into cities. The ability to oversee affairs in an outpost or a fortress, and so on.

-More towns, larger towns, and more influential towns. Hell, why not make them cities? At these focal points of commerce you should be able to recruit temporary mercenaries, pack animals, and so on.

-Less extreme powers, but more powers in general. Or, at least, they should develop into their extremity. You shouldn't be shooting fusion blasts at level one.

-Bring back the spells from DS1 and DS2.

-Better animations. A dual-wielder shouldn't stay rapt at attention forever... I think you've noticed this oddity.

-More human enemies. Fighting disfigured monsters is kind of boring after a while.

-More difference in melee weapons. You should fight faster with dual daggers, slower with dual hammers.

All I've got for now...

I found this on one of the news feeds that this site aggregates:

Looks like it's more than enough cause to hope for sure... I doubt that he would have mentioned DS3 if the talks weren't serious.

I have to agree. GPG has a tendency to only mention things that they are 100% sure on doing. I'm not saying there WILL be a DS3, but they wouldn't have said they were seriously talking about it unless they seriously were.

If I had to make a suggestion, it would be to take hints and pointers from Neverwinter Nights, the first one. I liked all of the different accessories and items you could have (belts, bracers, cloaks, etc), as well as the massive variety of weapon styles and of cource, the cities.

There are a lot of good things in NWN but that game is more RPG than hack and slash and that is just not DS. I am pretty happy about how DS2 turned out. It mostly just needs better graphics and a better world, less linear and bigger. Of course, more RPG elements wont ruin it for me if they keep the focus on the hack and slash.