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Why.....

.....is it that pretty much everywhere I go, I see such negativity from many people regarding modifying and playing DS2?

Why are so many folks wasting valuable energy griping about this and that, when you all could be pooling together and doing something good for the community?

I find it rather unamusing. So many good brains in our community, you should reconsider griping about this game, and DO SOMETHING! Smile

What do I mean?

Well, why don't the lot of you just MOD this game? You cannot tell me that 'due to the trillions of bugs, this game is dead, and I cannot mod this game'. That, my friends, is hogwash. Smile

IF you all pooled yourselves into a collective, you all would be surprised as to what you CAN and SHOULD and WILL do with DS2!

Please. My friends. Pull yourselves together. Let us all work together. I am pretty sure that IF this were to occur, then mods will start to appear as often as before.

I have zero complaints with this game.

Am I an island? Am I swimming in shark-infested waters?

I certainly hope not.

C'mon folks, 'tis NOT as bad as you all espouse! Lets work together!!!!

Regards,

SvS

All I can say is: Shark ^^

But I don't see that much griping here anymore, but that could mean alot of people have given up.

firebat's picture

I'm still modding a little, most of it is for myself and will never be released...

Most of it? You realise that means you have to release some of your mods. Wink

Sharkull's picture

SvS wrote:
Am I an island? Am I swimming in shark-infested waters?

LOL!
Shark

:yankchain: (just kidding)

You will notice that my complaints posted on the Garage are not inflammitory, and I only try to explain to GPG what the problems are (as I see them). I don't let this stop what I plan on doing, but unless GPG is made aware of what is wanted by the community, then nothing will be done. If anything I've posted over there is out of line, please let me know... I'll retract / clarify anything I've written that isn't true / clear.

Obviously the Garage is the highest profile site for DS2 right now, so looking to it as a modding resource and a way of communicating with GPG, I think it is easy to understand how things can get blown out of proportion. Can DS2 be modded? Absolutely! Is it perfect? No. Requests and problems voiced by the community are then read by newbie modders, which can be quite discouraging to them. All that needs to happen to mitigate this effect is a response or two from GPG with their position... When you think about it, reading about some missing pieces of the puzzle shouldn't stop anyone from modding DS2, but IMHO anyone considering modding should know what they're getting into.

There is also a noticable lack of a popular mod hosting site. It is possible that people are quietly modding DS2, and waiting for the next Siege-Mods to come along. Herena Forge has hosted a few mods, but I don't think OC wants it to be a huge download site (I believe the wiki is his focus...). DSH hasn't really become active with mod uploads... (no idea why not). Note that SiegeTheDay.org admin is investigating file hosting options (no promises and no timelines...). Wink

Quote:
IF you all pooled yourselves into a collective, you all would be surprised as to what you CAN and SHOULD and WILL do with DS2!

I'm not sure history supports this. Most of the successful mods for DS1 were essentially solo efforts, such as Xaa's LoH and Mageworld. These did use elements contributed by others (including myself) but what got them done was probably the fact that there was no-one else to leave all the work to. Iryan and Elys did solo projects that built on community pieces as well. Abstraction has a lot of my content too, but it's really Monsoon's project and will get finished (real soon now....) because he wants it finished.

On the other hand the Elemental project was well-run, large and went nowhere. Copperhead was never completed.

However, there was a substantial amount of sharing of components with DS1. One author's skrit code for crafting would appear in someone else's siegelet, and so on. What will get things going for DS2 is a supply of useful parts that get put together. I'll probably end up putting the spare models I've made up on my web site (like I did with the Naja, and a few others) and see where they go. If others do the same with skrit, flicks, and such, we'll reach a point where enough parts exist to spark a whole new siegelet.

Sharkull's picture

Excellent post ghastley... and I agree. Smile There is no such thing as collective productivity, but there can be a collection of individual productivity. Go open source modding go!

Your post also reminds me of a thread from about two months ago (read the linked article...): http://std.seijsing.se/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93

Balderstrom's picture

A lot of DS1 material was closed source mods. which didn't help anyone. Like icemage's rebalance, a nice work but seriously unbalanced and broken. Hopefully if much of anything comes out of DS2 modding at all it wont wind up like the past.

ghastley wrote:
I'm not sure history supports this. Most of the successful mods for DS1 were essentially solo efforts

However, there was a substantial amount of sharing of components with DS1. One author's skrit code for crafting would appear in someone else's siegelet, and so on. What will get things going for DS2 is a supply of useful parts that get put together.


I have noticed the same thing, perhaps the Ultima project is the one exception where a team worked for quite a long time and saw it through to completion.

If enough people keep chipping away, making little improvements here and there, somebody will get inspired enough to dive in and do something as complex as Mageworld, at least to the extent that DS2 allows it.

I like your positivity svs. I tried hard to be postive Sad . I have accepted ds2 for what it is now and won't be gripping much. I honestly think gpg should have documented, but I have given up that fight. I believe I recall you from game-editing. If so then you would recall the support that was given back then. The trip to seatle, artpacks, and su 1(which is completed by gpg) . Well this is wyvern who worked with team elemental. I'm working on a map and have an ok basic crafting system built from 2 other authors I beggged for help that now quit Sad . I just tell you this to explain my negativity. It would help a great deal if somone wrote tuts to explain skrit in ds2. I havn't had the time or will lately to study up on skrit(big skrit noob since i'm a mapper/noder) and struggle with it .

firebat's picture

sol77 wrote:
Most of it? You realise that means you have to release some of your mods. Wink

sure, but don't expect anything soon..

and don't expect too much of it

LoneKnight's picture

Quote:
So many good brains in our community, you should reconsider griping about this game, and DO SOMETHING!

Well...you have to remember that many of our best and brightest have gone. I've been around in the Dungeon Siege community for over 4 years, and I know that the Dungeon Siege community died out over a period of about two years.

It began with Witness saying that her site was going. That caused a massive amount of people to go sorta crazy.

Around the same time, Xaa left. He said he would move on to other games.

Now, THIS site got the refugees from Siege Network. It was brilliant for all of us. A place almost like Siege Network where we all just continued life. However, the site crashed and we lost everything. It was down for a good amount of time, and I think many people thought "this is it" and left.

It was repaired, granted, but it never did nor never will reach the height of power it once held.

Then, Uncle E. left Siege Works and it went down. Another blow to the DS community.

Then, the final strike that condemned the Dungeon Siege community was DS2. Of course, there was a brief period of excitement of the game, yet is was overpowered by the complaining about it.

DS2 turned off many players and made a ton of respected modders leave our community, many forever. The list of Dungeon Siege community sites shortens, and the players are beginning to wane. Many players on Zonematch in DS1 have no concern about their community what-so-ever.

No significant mods have come out for DS2, and GPG is not helping out as much as they were expected and ought to do. The only thing that is keeping Dungeon Siege 1 breathing is the siegelets that are coming out.

That, and the glum possibility of a "new and improved" DS2 expansion, which I believe is just a carrot that GPG is holding out infront of us, so they can squeeze more money out of us before pulling out of this engine.

There is no saving Dungeon Siege. Had DS2 NEVER come out, DS1 would still be going strong. Such a pity it is, that we live the last days of this great empire of a community we had created.

true lonenight ... not much to add............maybe the fact that what i have written before in the garage forum.........waiting and delay has moved many people as well.... they have lost there intressed in DS because waiting and not coming have driven them away adn those who know ds 1 and did mod it in the depht have seen that the additions are not that what was promissed. Let w enot fotget as wel that many teams have been broken up for several reasons.

Anyway............for me DS and GPG is broken.

LoneKnight wrote:
That, and the glum possibility of a "new and improved" DS2 expansion, which I believe is just a carrot that GPG is holding out infront of us, so they can squeeze more money out of us before pulling out of this engine.

GPG (and MS) are in the business of making money. If the DS mod community is to survive, it will be in spite of the marketing efforts of the powers-that-be. In that respect, I don't feel terribly positive since most players seem to lose interest and move on to the next "big thing" after a couple years. Just the way things work, I guess. :?
Personally, I still enjoy playing DS, even after 3+ years. I'm starting to get into modding, something which i had been thinking about for a long time but real-life constraints have prevented doing it sooner. There's still a lot of activity on ZM, which is encouraging. The fact that much of it is 150/PVP's just tells me that people are going to go where they have the most fun. If GPG wants to prevent hacking by locking out the modders, they might be doing themselves more harm than good because DS is only still alive because of all the mods.

Sharkull's picture

Lone Knight,
There's one thing missing from your saga: the demise of Siege-Mods ( Sad ). Its popularity was quickly linked to the DS2 modding community, and DS2 modders used it to share their work (almost exclusively). Losing S-M, plus patch v2.2 at almost the same time really hurt... No doubt about that.

Right now, there really isn't a new community site for hosting DS2 mods, and I still hold out hope that when one is created interest in DS2 modding will increase again. Mods must be shared and played for the community to survive and thrive.

Sounds a bit like you are all ready to leave, IMO. Please don't. I have started a 'big' mod, in attempt to keep you lot around for a little longer. So don't go leaving or there will probably be no use for me to continue. You people are what will probably keep me and my team going. Sad /end rant

I aint leaving. S-m going down was the blow to the ds2 community. Ds1 was already dead before ds2 came out. I think ppl got bored with it. I've been there, since ds1 modding started and our best were noobs. Not sure if you were there LK but it struggled as well. Seems you think you can beat ds2 with a ds1 siegelet and have a big ego about it.

You rely on our best and brightest too much. I stopped being negative when I realized I do not need anyone's help(I could use help of course). What we need xaa for? he was closed-source and close-minded. Team elemental is only open-source cause it failed. I miss ppl from there but does not mean new bright ppl won't come. I recall when xaa and icemage started /chuckle. They did not start off as our best. Same with anyone.

I guess you aint got the pioneer blood for ds2 LK. Too bad, don't need to try to knock us down any further with your negativity.

Mod users are not dead either one of my mod has over 1,350 d/s on one site .

I'm not leaving either. You might not believe this but I actually like DS2 - alot.

LoneKnight's picture

sharkull wrote:
Lone Knight,
There's one thing missing from your saga: the demise of Siege-Mods

Yeah, I forgot about that one. *sigh* RIP Charles

savante wrote:
Seems you think you can beat ds2 with a ds1 siegelet and have a big ego about it.

Hey, don't burn me on this. I've been in this community for a dang long time. I certainly know that this community has gone down hill. However, I'm trying to RESTORE some of DS1's former glory and perhaps some members with my siegelet, to show that this community has not lost hope, and we still will fight to take back what we lost. Because of that, Savante, I am very insulted by your disrespect.

BTW: Just to show an example of something - Freespace is a game that came out in 2000. It's community has been kept alive solely by its modders, and they "redid" it, so that it is better graphics, etc. The call it the source-code project.

Anyway, the Freespace Community is located http://www.hard-light.net/
Just goes to show you that a community can be saved by resilient modders.

I did say for ds2. I also did not say you won't match ur ego either. I don't care if I offend you though just thought i'd be clear. Your negativity doesn't help the community. We already heard this view many times. You are not the only one with this opinion. I honestly think you should give ds2 modding more thought.

Edit: I want ds2's community saved, so you should not wonder why I have insulted you. I also do not think this is a good time to spread negativity in either ds1 or ds2.

Heh, ppl are still modding d2 as well, and the project I used to work on is still in production! I left that community when ds1 came out. I took a look to see what was up and to my surprise they were active and had a lot more tools, more modders, and an irc channel. Ds2 is just starting out.

Ps I have seen the ds1 community struggle and fall apart. So I do not need any lectures on that. Same thing with the d2 modding community. Seen it start and it was dying when I left. Somehow in my absence it has revived. If you wanna give hope and have ds2 modders' respect don't be negative.

There has been alot of negativity at times lately. But there is really no need for arrogance an disrespect just because people feel hurt by something a gaming company did, or because of differing opinions.

I'm just glad there are those who wants to keep DS1 going, and also glad that there are those who like DS2 and modding it. A rift between those two groups would just be utterly stupid.

My two cents.

LoneKnight's picture

Quote:
A rift between those two groups would just be utterly stupid.

Here Here!

Trouble is, nowadays everyone’s a critic - we should all just get on with getting on with it (..??)

Blondin235 wrote:

Trouble is, nowadays everyone’s a critic - we should all just get on with getting on with it (..??) Smile

To be simple oi Smile .

sol77 wrote:
There has been alot of negativity at times lately. But there is really no need for arrogance an disrespect just because people feel hurt by something a gaming company did, or because of differing opinions.

I'm just glad there are those who wants to keep DS1 going, and also glad that there are those who like DS2 and modding it. A rift between those two groups would just be utterly stupid.

My two cents.

I agree with you here, but being negative towards ds2 will just scare potential modders off. Expect me to defend against this at my home sites.

Quote:
I agree with you here, but being negative towards ds2 will just scare potential modders off. Expect me to defend against this at my home sites.
As you should, it only makes sense.

LoneKnight's picture

Well, let's not forget that there is a large collective of people who simply play it, and then do nothing else. You know, the people who never bother and/or don't know about the community behind this game(s).

Sharkull's picture

LoneKnight wrote:
Well, let's not forget that there is a large collective of people who simply play it, and then do nothing else. You know, the people who never bother and/or don't know about the community behind this game(s).

Yes... and right now there is no real reason for players to go anywhere other than the GPGarage. That's why downloads are so important to a modding community...

It is my opnion that there has happend more then just GPG and mods and closed sites and people did run away like modders teams and designers, lets not forget that the respect and trust in a community and among there members is very importend, as inside teams as well. What if they if they work with eachother instead against eachother? If those things are broken a community will that as well.

I do not go in any DS team any more, play or mod it. This for a simple personal reason. That is my opinion. Yes support on questions i can give.

How refreshing!

(applauds everyone that responded to this thread)

All of your opinions are valuable. I would like to thank each of you that are STILL Dungeon Siege'ers, especially us 'old folks' that have been around since the dawn of DS1.

I am currently embarking on a rather 'large' mod, which is Open Source, and currently posting things publicly at Herena Forge.

I have definately noticed a rather small community is what we all have left. Suffice it to say that we should create as excellent a mod or project as we all possibly can. I believe this will take a lot of patience, perseverence, and heck, even some commitment from each of us.

Once again, I would like to take my hat off to each of you that responded here! Nice to see positivity in such a hard-hit community like we have.

I agree that there are many lurkers in our community, and it is to those people that I would like to see a response!

What are you lurkers working on? Do you need help?

Elvis said it best:

A little less conversation, and a lot more action, baby!

Regards,

SvS

shadow smile's picture

Many thing can happen. Things may not happen because of GPG past actions. The only way up is us modding the game or the expansion. DSII can only go one direction and it should be up. My team is working on bring DSII up. Were just doing the terrain for the siegelet and some details. Once the expansion does come out we will incorperate what we like in to the siegelet. Text, etc. will be done later so at least try to do somthing to help if you can. (We might need help only a crew of 3 so ya)

Thats my 4 cents

LoneKnight's picture

Hmm. Well, I'd certainly LIKE to make a siegelet for Dungeon Siege 2, Savante, but at the moment that would be a stupid thing to do. There is no NPC communication system, SE2 has many problems by itself, and there's no PVP. Maybe after I finish Derelict, and if/when GPG fixes those problems I said above, you could see me make a siegelet for DS2.

I'm already in the process of writing a storyline for a possible DS2 siegelet.

We also can't forget that many games - Like Diablo 2 and Freespace are kept alive solely by the modders. They keep the game "fresh" and the players will stay.

I also have a large project nicknamed "DSSCP" that I will put into effect if DS2 fails and DS1 still has members....

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