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Trying to make multiclassing viable..

I got bored quickly of Dungeon Siege, despite liking most of its features. The reason is that multiclass characters are much too weak compared to their pure-class counterparts. When you level up a secondary skill, the skill itself rises plenty fast, but the STAT rises extremely slow, since stat growth is tied to your character's total experience, not the experience in that particular skill.

I want some way to fix this. All I really need is a way to increase a character's str/dex/int whenever I want to - because I made on my TI-83 a little program to calculate what a character's str/dex/int SHOULD be if the stats went up based on each individual skill's contribution, rather than the "uber-level".

I spent a whole day trying to use TankViewer/TankCreator to alter my single player savegames, only to find out the game doesn't use the party.gas file at all.

Then I spent another day searching thru all the glorious mods made for Dungeon Siege, Ultima remakes and huge mageworlds and elves, trying to find a way to tweak my str/dex/int, with no success. I can't even see it discussed anywhere!

It's driving me nuts, what I want is something extremely simple.. is there any way to do this?

volkan's picture

Could very well be hard-coded into the game engine. Might only be able to change it using a Dynamic Linked Library file. Know the Str/Dex/Int cap is hard-coded in DS2.

LoneKnight's picture

You made the right choice in asking for help at a forum. I'm not exactly sure about helping you here. I recommend you seek aid with people who are used to making more intricate changes to the DS engine, such as the Lazarus team's forum or the Project Britannia team's forum, both of which are active. Good luck.

Sharkull's picture

First things first: welcome to SiegeTheDay. Smile
:welcome:

Second, I think the exact thing you're trying to do is hard coded (but I could be wrong... asking someone at one of LK's links should give you a more definitive answer).

That being said, there may be acceptable alternatives. A change to formulas.gas skill / stat influence values can quickly rebalance things to your liking (eg. 0.33 each for an all-class character). This wouldn't work well with a multiple specialist party of characters though (each char. with different class combos), and you'd need a different mod for each class conbination you want to play with...

Idea: change the formuas.gas values to near zero, and create an item (amulet / book...) with progressive stat bonuses, based on the various class levels. This should be possible... (although I've never done something like this myself in DS1/LoA).

One thing to remember: the game isn't balanced for huge stats numbers that go beyond the regular ratios. If you get what you are literally asking for, a dual-class mage will have twice the int/mana, a dual-ranged/melee would have much higher str/life/dex/armor... which would mean a pretty easy gaming session. If that's what you want, that's your choice... I just wanted to raise the point in case you weren't aware of it.

Hope this helps, and happy modding.
Smile

Thanks for all the replies so far Smile

I've gone to the Ultima sites and posed my question there as well.

"One thing to remember: the game isn't balanced for huge stats numbers that go beyond the regular ratios. If you get what you are literally asking for, a dual-class mage will have twice the int/mana, a dual-ranged/melee would have much higher str/life/dex/armor... which would mean a pretty easy gaming session. If that's what you want, that's your choice... I just wanted to raise the point in case you weren't aware of it."

I don't think it would be as overpowered as all that. A dual-class mage would have twice the int EXPERIENCE, but the int LEVEL would be well under that.

For example, a mage that gets to level 6 in only nature would have an int of 14.. a mage that gets to level 6/6 in nature/combat would have an int of 16, in my system. And of course, getting to 6/6 is harder to begin with than just getting to 6 Smile

If it turns out to be too big a change, I'll just play on hard mode Smile

Sharkull's picture

Kahryl wrote:
For example, a mage that gets to level 6 in only nature would have an int of 14.. a mage that gets to level 6/6 in nature/combat would have an int of 16, in my system.

OK, I guess I misunderstood what you were going for... from your original post:
Kahryl wrote:
...what a character's str/dex/int SHOULD be if the stats went up based on each individual skill's contribution, rather than the "uber-level".

This sounded to me like you wanted stats to grow linked to skills, which I interpreted to mean a 6/6 NM/CM mage would get an int bonus for each six levels of growth. Now it sounds to me like you want str/dex/int balance (not growth) to be linked to the current skill level mix... for example:
Get to level 10 in melee then start levelling CM. The proportional balance of an INT based skill grows, while the proportion of STR based skill decreases, so you'd want STR to shrink while INT grows. When you're 10/10 M/CM, you'd have a certain uber level (determining the total stat bonus points up for grabs) and the stat levels would be based on 50% melee and 50% CM.

If this is what you want, again I have to say I have no ideas on how to do such a thing. It may be possible, but I don't know skrit.

An item based approach still might work, but I don't know how flexible the formulas could be (without a script)... Then there's the matter of updates not being automatic unless you use a script (otherwise you'd need to periodically unequip / equip the item when playing, to reset the balance / bonus values to accomodate any new exp gained).

No.. you were closer the first time Laughing out loud

Under the current system, let's say you first get your character to 10 in melee. Your strength will grow at a good clip, and give you enough strength to support your skill quite well.

Let's say you THEN get your character to level 10 in nature. Your int will CRAWL upwards, because your "uber-level" is ten, so you need enough xp to get to level 11 to get even one point of int (more, in fact). Basically you will not get NEARLY enough mana to be a good healer, not even as good a healer as a pure lvl 10 nature mage.

I just want to make it so that different skills don't hinder each others' stat growth. So a lvl 10/10 melee/nature character should have just as much int as a lvl 10 pure nature mage (or maybe a tiny bit more, since melee adds a little to int). This doesn't mean that pure-classing would no longer be viable, since in the time it takes to get to 10/10 melee/nature, a pure nature mage would be lvl 15-18 or so, with considerably higher int.

Also, as I stressed on another thread, I don't need a mod that actually changes the leveling system. Only a mod that gives me a "cheat code" that will increase my str, dex, or int by 1 whenever I use it, without increasing my skills.

Sharkull's picture

OK, let's crunch some numbers...

Kahryl wrote:
I just want to make it so that different skills don't hinder each others' stat growth. So a lvl 10/10 melee/nature character should have just as much int as a lvl 10 pure nature mage (or maybe a tiny bit more, since melee adds a little to int). This doesn't mean that pure-classing would no longer be viable, since in the time it takes to get to 10/10 melee/nature, a pure nature mage would be lvl 15-18 or so, with considerably higher int.

Actually a 10/10 melee/nature char would be uber level 13 (according to the experience tables).

Starting with the 10 melee, you'd get 6.4 STR, 2.7 DEX and 0.9 INT. Adding on 10 in NM, you're saying you want added 0.9 STR (vs. 0.27), 1.8 DEX (vs. 0.54) and 7.3 INT (vs. 2.19).

Totals 17.3 STR, 14.5 DEX and 18.2 INT. The character has grown 20 stat points by uber level 13, creating a game unbalance.

A pure nature mage at uber level 13 would only be at 11.17 STR, 12.34 DEX, and 19.49 INT. Comparing this to your proposed system's numbers, you'd have a HUGE life boost with a tiny INT difference.

For a more drastic example, look at a 10/10 NM/CM: 10NM starts you off with 0.9 STR, 1.8 DEX and 7.3 INT. CM would get you (under your system) 1.3 STR, 1.7 DEX and 7 INT. This would give you 12.2 STR, 13.5 DEX and 24.3 INT all by uber level 13. I hope you can see the balance problem here...

If this is what you want, then go to town in formulas.gas. Set the stat skill influences to total more than 1 combined stat point per skill level, because that's what it seems you're asking for. Set each influence to the same value if you want to completely remove all semblance of stat point specialization... it's your choice, and a two minute, super easy, change to make. You'll unbalance the game, but if that's what you want, have fun.

I've played mods like this before (years and years ago), and find they quickly become boring (to me) because the character becomes so overpowered.

I think the only way you'd be able to develop a balanced mad is to force pre-selection of a specific multi-class the way older games did. That way you could allocate experience to the chosen skills in a predefined proportion but still leave the result balanced against a pure class character.

I felt that the multi-classing spells in Broken World that split experience between two skills were a step backwards, but you could look at creating the other ten combination spells to allow any dual-class. The spells are not symmetric, if you cast a Fist of Stone spell, then your Melee splits to NM, but NM use does not contribute to Melee. I assume there's a reason for this, so you'd need 12 combinations for 4 skill types.

YAY number crunching :dance1:

Sharkull wrote:
OK, let's crunch some numbers...

Actually a 10/10 melee/nature char would be uber level 13 (according to the experience tables).

This assumes they both get the same amount of xp in that time. However higher lvl characters tend to get more xp in a certain time.. if my pure nature char was shooting off endless powerful healing/flash spells with his huge mana pool at lvl 11, while my 10/2 fighter/nature guy was struggling to learn how to cast weak low-xp heals with his developing mana pool, my pure character is going to be bringing in more xp, faster Smile

Quote:
Starting with the 10 melee, you'd get 6.4 STR, 2.7 DEX and 0.9 INT. Adding on 10 in NM, you're saying you want added 0.9 STR (vs. 0.27), 1.8 DEX (vs. 0.54) and 7.3 INT (vs. 2.19).

Totals 17.3 STR, 14.5 DEX and 18.2 INT. The character has grown 20 stat points by uber level 13, creating a game unbalance.

Not quite! Your figures for fighter and nature are correct by themselves, but you can't combine them additively. Remember it takes more xp to get from int lvl 15-16 than it does to get from int lvl 11-12, for example. So your calculations are slightly generous.

My own calculations show that my 10/10 fighter/nature would end up with:

str: 5450 xp (about 16.4)
dex: 1744 xp (about 13.3)
int: 7489 xp (about 17.4)

Quote:
A pure nature mage at uber level 13 would only be at 11.17 STR, 12.34 DEX, and 19.49 INT. Comparing this to your proposed system's numbers, you'd have a HUGE life boost with a tiny INT difference.

I didn't consider the effect on HP. Let's compare 3 characters, pure lvl 17 fighter, pure lvl 17 healer, pure lvl 10/10 fighter/healer hybrid:

-------FIGHTER----HEALER----HYBRID
STR:---20---------11--------16
DEX:---14---------13--------13
INT:---11---------22--------17
HP:----392--------225-------323
MP:----81---------343-------223

That doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course if I'm wrong about the level my pure characters will be compared to my hybrid (17), this will be off. But not so far that the hybrid will be a god.

Quote:
If this is what you want, then go to town in formulas.gas. Set the stat skill influences to total more than 1 combined stat point per skill level, because that's what it seems you're asking for. Set each influence to the same value if you want to completely remove all semblance of stat point specialization... it's your choice, and a two minute, super easy, change to make. You'll unbalance the game, but if that's what you want, have fun.

That's a clever idea, but the problem is that PURE-class characters will still get the benefit of these greater-than-100% totals (they shouldn't. Pure characters should advance exactly the same way in my system as in the default game). There'd still be little benefit to hybridizing.. although I suppose if I set "melee" to something like 64%/40%/40%, a melee character would have the incentive to use nature magic just to make use of all the mana he's getting!

It still doesn't seem quite.. RIGHT, though. Oh I wish there was a better, cleaner way..

ghastley wrote:
I think the only way you'd be able to develop a balanced mad is to force pre-selection of a specific multi-class the way older games did. That way you could allocate experience to the chosen skills in a predefined proportion but still leave the result balanced against a pure class character.

That would work, though it's a restrictive solution.. but would there be any way to set the allocation to experience to be different for each character? Obviously I don't want us all to be the same class Smile

Giovanna_del_Arco's picture

ghastley wrote:

I felt that the multi-classing spells in Broken World that split experience between two skills were a step backwards, but you could look at creating the other ten combination spells to allow any dual-class. The spells are not symmetric, if you cast a Fist of Stone spell, then your Melee splits to NM, but NM use does not contribute to Melee. I assume there's a reason for this, so you'd need 12 combinations for 4 skill types.

I think there should be room for not only single classing and double-classing, but also triple-classing and omni-classing. I always wondered why DS2BW didn't have options for Nature Mage/Ranger (and Ranger/Nature Mage), Combat Mage/Melée Fighter (and Melée Fighter/Combat Mage), Nature Mage/Combat Mage (and Combat Mage/Nature Mage), Nature Mage/Melée Fighter, and Combat Mage/Ranger, as well as combinations of three classes and the ultimate "Grand High Siegemaster/Siegemistress" (a combination of all four classes at the highest experience level as in DS1/LoA).

That said, I think there should be perks for single-classing in terms of level limitations on those who choose to double-, triple-, or omni-class (relative to the extent of combination and how far in other classes such a character goes).

The reason I think there should be room for all of this is because I really like having options, rather than having something pre-packaged in a "one-size-fits-all" sort of thing. One size does not fit all, and freedom of choice is a boon (which is one of the reasons I like the additional race choices in Abstraction MP and in Elys DS2BW Succubus).

I think I said most of this already in the DS3 thread, but I feel strongly enough about this to repeat it.

~~~
Giovanna

What do these do??

// experience_limiter

[experience_limiting_factors]
{
first_level = 0.10;
later_levels = 0.025;
}

EDIT: never mind, I bet they just keep you from getting more than 10%/2.5% of a skill level in one blow/spell..

Sharkull's picture

Kahryl wrote:
YAY number crunching :dance1:

Your numbers are more accurate than mine because you used stat exp vs linear growth ( :oops: ), so it wouldn't be quite as bad as I wrote... but it's still an issue to keep an eye on (if a method of implementation is found).
Smile

Giovanna_del_Arco's picture

Giovanna_del_Arco wrote:

I think there should be perks for single-classing in terms of level limitations on those who choose to double-, triple-, or omni-class (relative to the extent of combination and how far in other classes such a character goes).

By the way, from the comments about double- and multi-classing given in-game in DS2, I'm guessing that this is one of the functions of the Über Level in DS2/BW, so I wouldn't want any additional limitations introduced (I was never a fan of non-human level limitations in 1st edition AD&D, either). If you can only go to Über Level 100, then any progression after that in any class or stat is impossible (that's the way things were in DS1/LoA with Witness' Dark and Light Elves mod, as far as stat XP was concerned; once you were level 150 in all classes and in Über Level, your STR, INT, and DEX were frozen).

It's possible, I know, to edit the party.gas and make lasting changes in MULTIPLAYER games. Could there be some efficient way to import my characters into multiplayer, make the changes, and then import them back?

DSMod or DSLOAMod should do the trick. Don't quite remember how to do it though.. I'll go searching for a tutorial on how to do it if I can find the time tomorrow.

If you try it you might need this mod as well: dsloaamt. It might even contain instructions on how to do the transfer if you are lucky.

Well it turned out that I got SO PISSED OFF that this WONDERFUL INFINITELY MODIFIABLE MASTERPIECE OF A GAME is so damn BADLY DESIGNED THAT I CAN'T MAKE THE MOST ELEMENTARY CHANGE TO MY CHARACTER, I ended up going into the world.xdat file and SPENDING AN ENTIRE DAY FIGURING OUT WHERE MY STR/DEX/INT ARE STORED AND HOW THEY'RE REPRESENTED IN THE HAXXORDECIMAL

And after a couple attempts at modifying them that ended in disaster, I MADE IT WORK!! I CAN SET MY STATS TO ANYTHING! I AM A GENIUS!!! :wacko:

Haha, I'm glad you figured it out. But go easy on the CAPS. Wink